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	<title>Comments on: Notes from the Tower: One publisher&#8217;s struggles with ePub</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.teleread.com/2009/09/04/notes-from-the-tower/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/</link>
	<description>News &#38; views on e-books, libraries, publishing and related topics</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:24:03 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Liza Daly</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1144896</link>
		<dc:creator>Liza Daly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:55:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1144896</guid>
		<description>Could this post be edited to reflect that Bookworm wasn&#039;t ignoring the CSS incorrectly? At least &lt;a href=&quot;http://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/2009/09/10/new-technologies-and-the-need-for-standards/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;one other blog&lt;/a&gt; has reported the misinformation. Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could this post be edited to reflect that Bookworm wasn&#8217;t ignoring the CSS incorrectly? At least <a href="http://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/2009/09/10/new-technologies-and-the-need-for-standards/" rel="nofollow">one other blog</a> has reported the misinformation. Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Liza Daly</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1144645</link>
		<dc:creator>Liza Daly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 00:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1144645</guid>
		<description>epubcheck doesn&#039;t catch this issue because of a bug: http://code.google.com/p/epubcheck/issues/detail?id=28</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>epubcheck doesn&#8217;t catch this issue because of a bug: <a href="http://code.google.com/p/epubcheck/issues/detail?id=28" rel="nofollow">http://code.google.com/p/epubcheck/issues/detail?id=28</a></p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1144632</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 18:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1144632</guid>
		<description>@Christine - No, epubcheck didn&#039;t catch it. I&#039;ll certainly consider eCub in the future.

@Liza - I&#039;m not sure how much use a standard is when nothing (apart from Bookworm, admittedly) conforms to it. It&#039;s really irritating for the standards-conformers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Christine &#8211; No, epubcheck didn&#8217;t catch it. I&#8217;ll certainly consider eCub in the future.</p>
<p>@Liza &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure how much use a standard is when nothing (apart from Bookworm, admittedly) conforms to it. It&#8217;s really irritating for the standards-conformers.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1144280</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2009 18:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1144280</guid>
		<description>@Jon - that&#039;s the beauty of markdown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jon &#8211; that&#8217;s the beauty of markdown.</p>
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		<title>By: Liza Daly</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1144270</link>
		<dc:creator>Liza Daly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2009 17:54:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1144270</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;In this case it is not unreasonable for an EPUB reading system to ignore it, like Bookworm did.&lt;/i&gt;

In fact, a conforming reading system is &lt;i&gt;required&lt;/i&gt; to ignore resources that aren&#039;t in the OPF.  So any one that did display the CSS here was explicitly misbehaving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>In this case it is not unreasonable for an EPUB reading system to ignore it, like Bookworm did.</i></p>
<p>In fact, a conforming reading system is <i>required</i> to ignore resources that aren&#8217;t in the OPF.  So any one that did display the CSS here was explicitly misbehaving.</p>
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		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1143802</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2009 00:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1143802</guid>
		<description>@ martin - 

epubcheck might have caught that.
http://code.google.com/p/epubcheck/

Using a program to create the epub file would also make sure everything&#039;s in order. I use eCub, there are others. I like eCub because it doesn&#039;t alter my html or css (if you remember to uncheck &quot;generate css&quot; in the options), and it&#039;s easy to use.
http://www.juliansmart.com/ecub</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ martin &#8211; </p>
<p>epubcheck might have caught that.<br />
<a href="http://code.google.com/p/epubcheck/" rel="nofollow">http://code.google.com/p/epubcheck/</a></p>
<p>Using a program to create the epub file would also make sure everything&#8217;s in order. I use eCub, there are others. I like eCub because it doesn&#8217;t alter my html or css (if you remember to uncheck &#8220;generate css&#8221; in the options), and it&#8217;s easy to use.<br />
<a href="http://www.juliansmart.com/ecub" rel="nofollow">http://www.juliansmart.com/ecub</a></p>
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		<title>By: Liza Daly</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1143668</link>
		<dc:creator>Liza Daly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 23:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1143668</guid>
		<description>No worries, I found and fixed some unrelated Bookworm CSS issues thanks to digging in here.  They will be posted shortly along with some exciting new features.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No worries, I found and fixed some unrelated Bookworm CSS issues thanks to digging in here.  They will be posted shortly along with some exciting new features.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1143645</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 22:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1143645</guid>
		<description>@Ordbrand - You&#039;re absolutely right, and when I put it in, Bookworm sees the CSS. I&#039;m left with egg on my face, but at least egg is nutritious!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ordbrand &#8211; You&#8217;re absolutely right, and when I put it in, Bookworm sees the CSS. I&#8217;m left with egg on my face, but at least egg is nutritious!</p>
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		<title>By: Ordbrand</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1143601</link>
		<dc:creator>Ordbrand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 21:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1143601</guid>
		<description>The sample EPUB file does not conform to the OPF 2.0 specification. There is no entry in the manifest of the OPF file for the CSS stylesheet file. In this case it is not unreasonable for an EPUB reading system to ignore it, like Bookworm did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sample EPUB file does not conform to the OPF 2.0 specification. There is no entry in the manifest of the OPF file for the CSS stylesheet file. In this case it is not unreasonable for an EPUB reading system to ignore it, like Bookworm did.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Paul Durrant</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1143475</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Durrant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 17:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1143475</guid>
		<description>As Christine says, the problem isn&#039;t that the standard doesn&#039;t define what CSS should be implemented by ePub reading software, it&#039;s that the programs aren&#039;t  implementing them all (yet).

http://www.idpf.org/2007/ops/OPS_2.0_final_spec.html#Section3.3

specifies all the CSS properties that should be implemented.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Christine says, the problem isn&#8217;t that the standard doesn&#8217;t define what CSS should be implemented by ePub reading software, it&#8217;s that the programs aren&#8217;t  implementing them all (yet).</p>
<p><a href="http://www.idpf.org/2007/ops/OPS_2.0_final_spec.html#Section3.3" rel="nofollow">http://www.idpf.org/2007/ops/OPS_2.0_final_spec.html#Section3.3</a></p>
<p>specifies all the CSS properties that should be implemented.</p>
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		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1143453</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 15:57:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1143453</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not the idpf, there are standards. It&#039;s the reading software makers not supporting them, regardless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not the idpf, there are standards. It&#8217;s the reading software makers not supporting them, regardless.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: pond</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1143450</link>
		<dc:creator>pond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 15:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1143450</guid>
		<description>Wow. This was an eye-opener to me, thanks for posting it!

ePub is supposed to save us from the tower of ebabel, only ... it also slams us all back into the ugliness of html and the different ways different browser (user agents) interpret and display the code. CSS sounds great in theory, but in practice it turned out that different browsers only supported what they wanted to support.

I would ask, then, that the IPDF standardize the rules of rendering that any user agent needs to accept, so that Sony and other companies using ePub can really have industry-standard rendering. Plus the IPDF should publish &#039;best practices&#039; for publishers with specific suggestions as to how to format their texts.

&#039;Thought breaks&#039; and rendering verse are pretty basic to publishing, after all!

How many years have the eggheads been working on this? Sheesh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. This was an eye-opener to me, thanks for posting it!</p>
<p>ePub is supposed to save us from the tower of ebabel, only &#8230; it also slams us all back into the ugliness of html and the different ways different browser (user agents) interpret and display the code. CSS sounds great in theory, but in practice it turned out that different browsers only supported what they wanted to support.</p>
<p>I would ask, then, that the IPDF standardize the rules of rendering that any user agent needs to accept, so that Sony and other companies using ePub can really have industry-standard rendering. Plus the IPDF should publish &#8216;best practices&#8217; for publishers with specific suggestions as to how to format their texts.</p>
<p>&#8216;Thought breaks&#8217; and rendering verse are pretty basic to publishing, after all!</p>
<p>How many years have the eggheads been working on this? Sheesh.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1143405</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 13:36:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1143405</guid>
		<description>@Paul - Your h1+p is a good idea and I should have thought of it myself. I must say that the idea of a &#039;gap paragraph&#039; seems a little less elegant than giving the first paragraph of a section its own attribute, but if necessary I&#039;ll look at that again.

@Paul - I originally did this sort of thing and of course it worked in a real browser, but when I saw that Stanza was ignoring the top and bottom margin settings (and Bookworm was ignoring everything) it seemed safest to avoid being clever with CSS in this case. I&#039;ve now defined the style almost exactly as you suggest, and it turns out that although Stanza ignores top and bottom margins it honours left ones and also handles &#039;text-indent&#039; properly, so the initial &quot;&quot; is no longer needed. I&#039;ve uploaded a revised version to the same address as before.

@Kirk - there is no @page selector at all in my CSS that I can see. That&#039;s an interesting point abou the Sony Reader, though. I suppose I&#039;ll have to go out and get one.

@Liza - thanks: an email is on its way to you. If there&#039;s any change I can make, I&#039;ll make it; if the bug is yours, then I&#039;ll be glad if my example can help you pin it down.

@Jon - No, I&#039;m not using justification: I let the device decide for itself. You could add to your recipe &quot;Italics, write italicized words _like this_&quot;. I know this is correct because the edition of &quot;Journey to the Centre of the Earth&quot; that I recently read on my iPod does it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Paul &#8211; Your h1+p is a good idea and I should have thought of it myself. I must say that the idea of a &#8216;gap paragraph&#8217; seems a little less elegant than giving the first paragraph of a section its own attribute, but if necessary I&#8217;ll look at that again.</p>
<p>@Paul &#8211; I originally did this sort of thing and of course it worked in a real browser, but when I saw that Stanza was ignoring the top and bottom margin settings (and Bookworm was ignoring everything) it seemed safest to avoid being clever with CSS in this case. I&#8217;ve now defined the style almost exactly as you suggest, and it turns out that although Stanza ignores top and bottom margins it honours left ones and also handles &#8216;text-indent&#8217; properly, so the initial &#8220;&#8221; is no longer needed. I&#8217;ve uploaded a revised version to the same address as before.</p>
<p>@Kirk &#8211; there is no @page selector at all in my CSS that I can see. That&#8217;s an interesting point abou the Sony Reader, though. I suppose I&#8217;ll have to go out and get one.</p>
<p>@Liza &#8211; thanks: an email is on its way to you. If there&#8217;s any change I can make, I&#8217;ll make it; if the bug is yours, then I&#8217;ll be glad if my example can help you pin it down.</p>
<p>@Jon &#8211; No, I&#8217;m not using justification: I let the device decide for itself. You could add to your recipe &#8220;Italics, write italicized words _like this_&#8221;. I know this is correct because the edition of &#8220;Journey to the Centre of the Earth&#8221; that I recently read on my iPod does it.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Pastore</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1143400</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Pastore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 13:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1143400</guid>
		<description>“But let there be spaces in your togetherness and let the winds of the heavens dance between you. &quot;
--Kahlil Gibran

All we can do, for now, is to make sure that our EPUBs are valid. 

As you know, IDPF is currently revising the EPUB standards, which might make things easier for the reading devices to render things more accurately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“But let there be spaces in your togetherness and let the winds of the heavens dance between you. &#8221;<br />
&#8211;Kahlil Gibran</p>
<p>All we can do, for now, is to make sure that our EPUBs are valid. </p>
<p>As you know, IDPF is currently revising the EPUB standards, which might make things easier for the reading devices to render things more accurately.</p>
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		<title>By: Josep</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/iphone/notes-from-the-tower/comment-page-1/#comment-1143263</link>
		<dc:creator>Josep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 06:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/?p=28101#comment-1143263</guid>
		<description>At last, somebody to realize it. As you can see, digitalizing is not so trivial/easy/cheap.

I liked the ideas, but there&#039;s not solution yet. Whe&#039;re all waiting for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At last, somebody to realize it. As you can see, digitalizing is not so trivial/easy/cheap.</p>
<p>I liked the ideas, but there&#8217;s not solution yet. Whe&#8217;re all waiting for it.</p>
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