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	<title>Comments on: Why we need an ePub logo&#8212;pronto!</title>
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	<link>http://www.teleread.com/drm/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/</link>
	<description>News &#38; views on e-books, libraries, publishing and related topics</description>
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		<title>By: Evan Leibovitch</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/drm/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/comment-page-1/#comment-1115722</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan Leibovitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 21:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/2009/08/02/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/#comment-1115722</guid>
		<description>To Felix and Paul:

This is indeed the point at which push comes to shove. Now that they&#039;ve worked so hard on having a standard, what are IDPF members prepared to do to protect and promote that standard?

Count me in on full agreement that an unenforced standard is no standard at all. The question, of course is, what next with ePub?

It is reasonable for IDPF to go to its deeper-pocketed members -- especially those in the chain directly competing with Amazon -- to establish a fund to pay for the setup and policing of the trademarks. If handled properly, such a fund could be self-sustaining through nominal licensing fees. Eventually the fund could be paid back to its original backers.

In any case, I note that there are many who feel that the ePub standard is insufficient for its needs, and they may be right. But that&#039;s not a reason to impede protecting what already exists. Most who has used USB or Blu-ray knows that those &quot;standards&quot; have gone through multiple versions, without eroding public use or respect for those formats and protocols.

And as for Joe&#039;s unfortunate admission of ignorance... that&#039;s more deserving of pity than ridicule.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Felix and Paul:</p>
<p>This is indeed the point at which push comes to shove. Now that they&#8217;ve worked so hard on having a standard, what are IDPF members prepared to do to protect and promote that standard?</p>
<p>Count me in on full agreement that an unenforced standard is no standard at all. The question, of course is, what next with ePub?</p>
<p>It is reasonable for IDPF to go to its deeper-pocketed members &#8212; especially those in the chain directly competing with Amazon &#8212; to establish a fund to pay for the setup and policing of the trademarks. If handled properly, such a fund could be self-sustaining through nominal licensing fees. Eventually the fund could be paid back to its original backers.</p>
<p>In any case, I note that there are many who feel that the ePub standard is insufficient for its needs, and they may be right. But that&#8217;s not a reason to impede protecting what already exists. Most who has used USB or Blu-ray knows that those &#8220;standards&#8221; have gone through multiple versions, without eroding public use or respect for those formats and protocols.</p>
<p>And as for Joe&#8217;s unfortunate admission of ignorance&#8230; that&#8217;s more deserving of pity than ridicule.</p>
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		<title>By: Felix Torres</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/drm/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/comment-page-1/#comment-1115563</link>
		<dc:creator>Felix Torres</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 12:36:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/2009/08/02/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/#comment-1115563</guid>
		<description>Paul Biba:
Unfortunately, the IDPF really consists of one guy and a bunch of part timers and so I doubt they would have the resources to do any of the above. It would take manpower to set the standards and to constantly review all the works out there that were using the licensed logo - so I really don’t expect anything much will come of this.
___________________________________________________

We are in agreement.
That s what I meant about &quot;teeth&quot;.
CDs and DVD has a Logo program. And they have trademarks. But what matters is that if somebody comes out with an incompatible mutation (and it *has* happened--the music studios have tried for years to create unrippable CDs that would not play on PCs) they have to deal with the Lawyers from Sony and Philips and the very deep-pocketed licensing body.
They have the will and the means t inflict serious pain on transgressors.

With ePub the danger isn&#039;t a hypothetical ePub-plus (Google search never heard of it before this article) embrace-and-extend attack from the outside but rather the buggaboo of committee standards: interpretation. And the ability of a savvy, unscrupulous &quot;supporter&quot; to hijack the standard by creating a defacto &quot;interpretation standard&quot; based on availability and market share not on official standards. In fact, given the inevitable gaps in any committe-based standard, they can cite full spec-compliance while at the same time advancing their own flavor at the expense of interoperability.
This is not paranoia; this is happening right now all over in the IT industry. Everybody preaches interoperability. On *their* terms. Examples abound all over because nobody has the absolute power to say what the standard means. Words are cheap. Deeds cost money. And in the marketplace paper specs are just a marketting gimmick; what matters is the implementation with the market share. 
Standards hijacking is common. 
And very very profitable.
And it is happening to ePub right now. Just look at the changelogs of Calibre and other ePub tools.
&quot;Tweaked XXX to be compatible with yyy.&quot;

Without an enforcer with teeth, talk of Logo programs and trademark suits are just that.
Talk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Biba:<br />
Unfortunately, the IDPF really consists of one guy and a bunch of part timers and so I doubt they would have the resources to do any of the above. It would take manpower to set the standards and to constantly review all the works out there that were using the licensed logo &#8211; so I really don’t expect anything much will come of this.<br />
___________________________________________________</p>
<p>We are in agreement.<br />
That s what I meant about &#8220;teeth&#8221;.<br />
CDs and DVD has a Logo program. And they have trademarks. But what matters is that if somebody comes out with an incompatible mutation (and it *has* happened&#8211;the music studios have tried for years to create unrippable CDs that would not play on PCs) they have to deal with the Lawyers from Sony and Philips and the very deep-pocketed licensing body.<br />
They have the will and the means t inflict serious pain on transgressors.</p>
<p>With ePub the danger isn&#8217;t a hypothetical ePub-plus (Google search never heard of it before this article) embrace-and-extend attack from the outside but rather the buggaboo of committee standards: interpretation. And the ability of a savvy, unscrupulous &#8220;supporter&#8221; to hijack the standard by creating a defacto &#8220;interpretation standard&#8221; based on availability and market share not on official standards. In fact, given the inevitable gaps in any committe-based standard, they can cite full spec-compliance while at the same time advancing their own flavor at the expense of interoperability.<br />
This is not paranoia; this is happening right now all over in the IT industry. Everybody preaches interoperability. On *their* terms. Examples abound all over because nobody has the absolute power to say what the standard means. Words are cheap. Deeds cost money. And in the marketplace paper specs are just a marketting gimmick; what matters is the implementation with the market share.<br />
Standards hijacking is common.<br />
And very very profitable.<br />
And it is happening to ePub right now. Just look at the changelogs of Calibre and other ePub tools.<br />
&#8220;Tweaked XXX to be compatible with yyy.&#8221;</p>
<p>Without an enforcer with teeth, talk of Logo programs and trademark suits are just that.<br />
Talk.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Biba</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/drm/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/comment-page-1/#comment-1115441</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Biba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 04:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/2009/08/02/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/#comment-1115441</guid>
		<description>As a matter of law, it would be easy for the IDPF to enforce compliance with an EPUB standard.  If the phrase &quot;EPUB&quot; is trademarked, as I hope it is, and if the new logo is trademarked, then the IDPF could license only those users who met certain standards to use &quot;EPUB&quot; or the logo.  

The way it works is that if you want to use the trademarks you have to sign a license agreement that includes specific standards that you have to meet.  If you don&#039;t meet them then the IDPF could pull the marks.  This is a very common way for companies to ensure that others who use their marks comply with their quality standards.

Anyone else could be sued for trademark infringement or failure to comply with the license agreement.  Part of the suit would be to get an injunction to prevent them from using either trademark.

Unfortunately, the IDPF really consists of one guy and a bunch of part timers and so I doubt they would have the resources to do any of the above.  It would take manpower to set the standards and to constantly review all the works out there that were using the licensed logo - so I really don&#039;t expect anything much will come of this.

But the important point is that it is eminently doable, and even commonplace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a matter of law, it would be easy for the IDPF to enforce compliance with an EPUB standard.  If the phrase &#8220;EPUB&#8221; is trademarked, as I hope it is, and if the new logo is trademarked, then the IDPF could license only those users who met certain standards to use &#8220;EPUB&#8221; or the logo.  </p>
<p>The way it works is that if you want to use the trademarks you have to sign a license agreement that includes specific standards that you have to meet.  If you don&#8217;t meet them then the IDPF could pull the marks.  This is a very common way for companies to ensure that others who use their marks comply with their quality standards.</p>
<p>Anyone else could be sued for trademark infringement or failure to comply with the license agreement.  Part of the suit would be to get an injunction to prevent them from using either trademark.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the IDPF really consists of one guy and a bunch of part timers and so I doubt they would have the resources to do any of the above.  It would take manpower to set the standards and to constantly review all the works out there that were using the licensed logo &#8211; so I really don&#8217;t expect anything much will come of this.</p>
<p>But the important point is that it is eminently doable, and even commonplace.</p>
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		<title>By: Felix Torres</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/drm/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/comment-page-1/#comment-1115193</link>
		<dc:creator>Felix Torres</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 19:31:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/2009/08/02/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/#comment-1115193</guid>
		<description>My specific concern about enforcement is that in the industry&#039;s rush to adopt ePub as a holy grail, it has unleashed a flood of reader and creator apps, each implementing *their* specific interpretation and coding/formating style expecting it to be accomodated on the other end. 
Classic corporate &quot;flip-it-over-the-wall&quot; thinking.
And, in the process, they have unleashed hundreds of thousands of ebook files that are pretty much guaranteed *not* to offer a uniform user experience in features or capabilities across the spectrum of reader apps and devices.
Will market share decide which interpretation of the spec prevails or will somebody actually have the guts and power to bell the cat and *force* providers to supply standards-compliant product?
I suspect the answer is no. The mice will talk a lot but the cat will go un-belled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My specific concern about enforcement is that in the industry&#8217;s rush to adopt ePub as a holy grail, it has unleashed a flood of reader and creator apps, each implementing *their* specific interpretation and coding/formating style expecting it to be accomodated on the other end.<br />
Classic corporate &#8220;flip-it-over-the-wall&#8221; thinking.<br />
And, in the process, they have unleashed hundreds of thousands of ebook files that are pretty much guaranteed *not* to offer a uniform user experience in features or capabilities across the spectrum of reader apps and devices.<br />
Will market share decide which interpretation of the spec prevails or will somebody actually have the guts and power to bell the cat and *force* providers to supply standards-compliant product?<br />
I suspect the answer is no. The mice will talk a lot but the cat will go un-belled.</p>
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		<title>By: Felix Torres</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/drm/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/comment-page-1/#comment-1115178</link>
		<dc:creator>Felix Torres</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 19:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/2009/08/02/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/#comment-1115178</guid>
		<description>Logos are fine but a full standards-compliance test suite with actual teeth is needed to enforce what an ePub is to be and, most important, how a reader app is to render that file. The emphasis being on &quot;teeth&quot;.
Failure to do so will allow a specific ePub &quot;supporter&quot; to hijack the spec by putting alternate renders and creation tools at a disadvantage, much as Netscape did with HTML during the early days of the web. At that time it really didn&#039;t matter what the HTML spec was; HTML was, by default, whatever Netscape rendered.
This cannot be allowed to happen to ePub.
Yet it is well on its way...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Logos are fine but a full standards-compliance test suite with actual teeth is needed to enforce what an ePub is to be and, most important, how a reader app is to render that file. The emphasis being on &#8220;teeth&#8221;.<br />
Failure to do so will allow a specific ePub &#8220;supporter&#8221; to hijack the spec by putting alternate renders and creation tools at a disadvantage, much as Netscape did with HTML during the early days of the web. At that time it really didn&#8217;t matter what the HTML spec was; HTML was, by default, whatever Netscape rendered.<br />
This cannot be allowed to happen to ePub.<br />
Yet it is well on its way&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: David Rothman</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/drm/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/comment-page-1/#comment-1115096</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rothman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 15:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/2009/08/02/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/#comment-1115096</guid>
		<description>Hi, Joe. Thanks for your comment, but remember, it&#039;s the IDPF people who&#039;ll judge the actual contest or appoint those who do. What&#039;s more, it isn&#039;t as if all open source efforts are design disasters. David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Joe. Thanks for your comment, but remember, it&#8217;s the IDPF people who&#8217;ll judge the actual contest or appoint those who do. What&#8217;s more, it isn&#8217;t as if all open source efforts are design disasters. David</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/drm/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/comment-page-1/#comment-1115014</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 13:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/2009/08/02/why-we-need-an-epub-logo-pronto/#comment-1115014</guid>
		<description>Asking anyone involved in open source to adjudicate graphic design seems like almost the worst imaginable scenario. I thought you wanted &lt;em&gt;results&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Asking anyone involved in open source to adjudicate graphic design seems like almost the worst imaginable scenario. I thought you wanted <em>results</em>.</p>
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