Comments on: First-rate PDF debate among TeleBloggers—and a K-12-helpful idea for the format, or at least apps using it http://www.teleread.com/ebooks/first-class-pdf-debate-among-telebloggers-and-an-idea-to-help-make-pdf-more-helpful-in-the-classroom-and-elsewhere/ News & views on e-books, libraries, publishing and related topics Wed, 15 Feb 2012 20:23:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: ficbot http://www.teleread.com/ebooks/first-class-pdf-debate-among-telebloggers-and-an-idea-to-help-make-pdf-more-helpful-in-the-classroom-and-elsewhere/comment-page-1/#comment-753012 ficbot Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:44:25 +0000 http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/04/03/first-class-pdf-debate-among-telebloggers-and-an-idea-to-help-make-pdf-more-helpful-in-the-classroom-and-elsewhere/#comment-753012 David, I think accessability is something people really need to think about as regards e-books, the same way ten years ago, everyone was saying the same thing to web designers---just because you CAN make it look pretty and fancy, doesn't mean you should because half of your website viewers may be using ancient public library computers, that sort of thing. I imagine with Teleread, where your goal is maximum accessability, you would prefer the more open formats? Plain text is still the only universal one for me. I don't think any teacher I know will be editing 1984 to use with their classes :) But it IS important for teachers to be able to work with the texts they use, and I think the 'establishment' has become so strident about 'ownership' of every tiny thing in terror that we will all be 'pirates' that they are losing sight of the larger needs of society to be able to cunduct themselves in a reasonable way with the stories and songs they are exposed to. I'll give you an example, I do a song with my SK kids about planting some cabbages, and every verse they do it with a different body part. We followed along with a CD (which we bought from an educational company just for this purpose) and when we were done, I had the children write their own verses using body parts not mentioned in the song. Do you think the publishers of this CD should be coming after the 5-year-olds for not respecting the copyright of their song by *gasp* changing the words? Of course not. That would be completely absurd. But somehow, they seem to feel they can go after grown-ups for this very thing. Fair use is becoming a lost concept, I'm afraid :( Perhaps this is a separate argument than your PDF issue, but I do think that technical barriers which restrict things like DRM'd PDF files which can't be pasted into a word processor or five-year-olds learning French by playing with a song they know are not a good thing, in general. David, I think accessability is something people really need to think about as regards e-books, the same way ten years ago, everyone was saying the same thing to web designers—just because you CAN make it look pretty and fancy, doesn’t mean you should because half of your website viewers may be using ancient public library computers, that sort of thing. I imagine with Teleread, where your goal is maximum accessability, you would prefer the more open formats? Plain text is still the only universal one for me.

I don’t think any teacher I know will be editing 1984 to use with their classes :) But it IS important for teachers to be able to work with the texts they use, and I think the ‘establishment’ has become so strident about ‘ownership’ of every tiny thing in terror that we will all be ‘pirates’ that they are losing sight of the larger needs of society to be able to cunduct themselves in a reasonable way with the stories and songs they are exposed to. I’ll give you an example, I do a song with my SK kids about planting some cabbages, and every verse they do it with a different body part. We followed along with a CD (which we bought from an educational company just for this purpose) and when we were done, I had the children write their own verses using body parts not mentioned in the song. Do you think the publishers of this CD should be coming after the 5-year-olds for not respecting the copyright of their song by *gasp* changing the words? Of course not. That would be completely absurd. But somehow, they seem to feel they can go after grown-ups for this very thing. Fair use is becoming a lost concept, I’m afraid :( Perhaps this is a separate argument than your PDF issue, but I do think that technical barriers which restrict things like DRM’d PDF files which can’t be pasted into a word processor or five-year-olds learning French by playing with a song they know are not a good thing, in general.

]]> By: David Rothman http://www.teleread.com/ebooks/first-class-pdf-debate-among-telebloggers-and-an-idea-to-help-make-pdf-more-helpful-in-the-classroom-and-elsewhere/comment-page-1/#comment-753000 David Rothman Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:29:27 +0000 http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/04/03/first-class-pdf-debate-among-telebloggers-and-an-idea-to-help-make-pdf-more-helpful-in-the-classroom-and-elsewhere/#comment-753000 Totally agree with your right to edit--but it'll help for people to know what's happening, which my proposal would allow via tracking. Imagine Lynne Chaney, Dick's novelist wife, rewriting 1984 without the readers knowing. At any rate, many thanks for raising the editing issue in a K-12 context---in keeping with a major mission of the TeleBlog. We want to keep writers, publishers and others connected with the needs of the Real World, especially K-12. Really appreciate your contributions and comments! - David Totally agree with your right to edit–but it’ll help for people to know what’s happening, which my proposal would allow via tracking. Imagine Lynne Chaney, Dick’s novelist wife, rewriting 1984 without the readers knowing. At any rate, many thanks for raising the editing issue in a K-12 context—in keeping with a major mission of the TeleBlog. We want to keep writers, publishers and others connected with the needs of the Real World, especially K-12. Really appreciate your contributions and comments! – David

]]> By: ficbot http://www.teleread.com/ebooks/first-class-pdf-debate-among-telebloggers-and-an-idea-to-help-make-pdf-more-helpful-in-the-classroom-and-elsewhere/comment-page-1/#comment-752948 ficbot Fri, 04 Apr 2008 13:07:59 +0000 http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/04/03/first-class-pdf-debate-among-telebloggers-and-an-idea-to-help-make-pdf-more-helpful-in-the-classroom-and-elsewhere/#comment-752948 Hi David. Thanks for posting my comment. Just wanted to clarify one thing, before the debate continues, about 'tweaking' and how publishers mmay not 'want' me to edit their stuff: I am by no means talking about a violation of copyright here. Exceptions for education purposes under fair use notwithstanding, those of us in the primary school market anyway generally use things in such small pieces that even if we were not using it for school, our use would still be legal. I'll give you an example, I downloaded a sample of a story off a website for teachers that sells larger books of such things. The idea is you can use the free one and see how it goes, and if you like it, you can buy more. So they are expecting you to print these out and distribute them---to your class, anyway. Fair enough. But by choosing PDF, it means any changes I need to make---and I am talking about small changes here, like changing the verb tenses---take ages, not just from a manual labour standpoint but fron an IT standpoint of time lost due to computer crashes. Remember, most schools don't have state of the art machines here :) My view (and I realize others may not share it) is that it's mine, I bought it, and I should be allowed to do what I want with it, within legal parameters. I don't like it when I try to use the file in a way that is legally permissable, and then I get stopped by DRM or by articifically imposed technical blocks such as forbidding copying, that violate my fair use rights to use the file in legal ways for my own purposes. Hi David. Thanks for posting my comment. Just wanted to clarify one thing, before the debate continues, about ‘tweaking’ and how publishers mmay not ‘want’ me to edit their stuff: I am by no means talking about a violation of copyright here. Exceptions for education purposes under fair use notwithstanding, those of us in the primary school market anyway generally use things in such small pieces that even if we were not using it for school, our use would still be legal. I’ll give you an example, I downloaded a sample of a story off a website for teachers that sells larger books of such things. The idea is you can use the free one and see how it goes, and if you like it, you can buy more. So they are expecting you to print these out and distribute them—to your class, anyway. Fair enough. But by choosing PDF, it means any changes I need to make—and I am talking about small changes here, like changing the verb tenses—take ages, not just from a manual labour standpoint but fron an IT standpoint of time lost due to computer crashes. Remember, most schools don’t have state of the art machines here :)

My view (and I realize others may not share it) is that it’s mine, I bought it, and I should be allowed to do what I want with it, within legal parameters. I don’t like it when I try to use the file in a way that is legally permissable, and then I get stopped by DRM or by articifically imposed technical blocks such as forbidding copying, that violate my fair use rights to use the file in legal ways for my own purposes.

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