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	<title>Comments on: Everyone&#8217;s  OpenReader</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.teleread.com/2006/01/29/everyones-openreader/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.teleread.com/jon-noring/everyones-openreader/</link>
	<description>News &#38; views on e-books, libraries, publishing and related topics</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:24:03 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Dear Author.Com &#124; The Limits of an Open Reader Standard</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/jon-noring/everyones-openreader/comment-page-1/#comment-104507</link>
		<dc:creator>Dear Author.Com &#124; The Limits of an Open Reader Standard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2006 14:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/?p=4201#comment-104507</guid>
		<description>[...] The problem is that all is not as it seems. According to Dave Rothman, a former member of IDPF since 1999 and current member of OpenReader, the standards adopted doesn&#8217;t require existing books to be converted or even require the entirety of the book to be in the standardized format. Further, this standard container or standard source for ebooks does not mean that there is standard DRM. This is such an important point and one that Bill McCoy of Adobe, and leading cheerleader for IDPF, never seems to address. Even if the standards are the same (which Dave Rothman maintains is not required by IDPF), if there isn&#8217;t consistent DRM, the dream of &#8220;any title any device&#8221; is still quite elusive. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The problem is that all is not as it seems. According to Dave Rothman, a former member of IDPF since 1999 and current member of OpenReader, the standards adopted doesn&#8217;t require existing books to be converted or even require the entirety of the book to be in the standardized format. Further, this standard container or standard source for ebooks does not mean that there is standard DRM. This is such an important point and one that Bill McCoy of Adobe, and leading cheerleader for IDPF, never seems to address. Even if the standards are the same (which Dave Rothman maintains is not required by IDPF), if there isn&#8217;t consistent DRM, the dream of &#8220;any title any device&#8221; is still quite elusive. [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Idiotprogrammer &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Ebook Creation Links</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/jon-noring/everyones-openreader/comment-page-1/#comment-76399</link>
		<dc:creator>Idiotprogrammer &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Ebook Creation Links</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Aug 2006 21:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/?p=4201#comment-76399</guid>
		<description>[...] OEBPS Standards: The Good and the Bad by Jon Noring [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] OEBPS Standards: The Good and the Bad by Jon Noring [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Sperberg</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/jon-noring/everyones-openreader/comment-page-1/#comment-48360</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Sperberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:07:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/?p=4201#comment-48360</guid>
		<description>Jon, you mention here and the OpenReader.org website describes the operation as a nonprofit. Is OpenReader.org been granted 501(c) nonprofit organization status? If not, has it been applied for? I ask here because I can&#039;t find any information on this at the website.

Thx
Roger</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon, you mention here and the OpenReader.org website describes the operation as a nonprofit. Is OpenReader.org been granted 501(c) nonprofit organization status? If not, has it been applied for? I ask here because I can&#8217;t find any information on this at the website.</p>
<p>Thx<br />
Roger</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Noring</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/jon-noring/everyones-openreader/comment-page-1/#comment-45563</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Noring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/?p=4201#comment-45563</guid>
		<description>In reference to John Mark Ockerbloom&#039;s well-written comment, when one looks at the user agent codebase requirements to unpack an XML-based framework (such as OEBPS and the proposed OpenReader), versus the requirements to render the framework once unpacked, we find that the unpacking step borders on the trivial (e.g., unpack a zip file.) That is, &lt;em&gt;from an application point of view,&lt;/em&gt; the container is pretty much a triviality.

For example, let&#039;s assume we have three quite different container formats which encapsulate the same XML-based framework (e.g., one is ZIP, another is multi-part MIME, and the third is serialized XML akin to those used for the FictionBook 2 and Sony&#039;s BBeB Xylog formats.) A user agent, originally designed to process and render the framework inside one of the container formats, will be able to readily unpack the other container formats and process the framework inside. The same cannot be said if the framework inside is fundamentally changed, such as to some oddball non-XML format. Now we are talking about &lt;em&gt;major&lt;/em&gt; software changes, and likely major changes in the end-user reading experience.

Thus, it is what is inside the container that is the most important to get right since that is what really defines the format as the user agent renders and as end-user accesses it: features, functions, etc. I agree with Bill&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.adobe.com/billmccoy/2006/01/sony_bbeb_and_e.html&quot;&gt;latest blog article&lt;/a&gt;, where he keeps the focus on the XML-based framework and is not distracted by container issues. (I believe we need to think of separating container and framework, akin to the mantra in XML of separating content and presentation.)

Nevertheless, it is important that the design of the container itself be well-done so it facilitates the ability of user agents and other applications to access the framework resources inside of it (both content and important metadata, particularly publication identifiers), as well as meet other miscellaneous requirements of publishers and end-users.

Obviously, there is the issue of someone developing a proprietary container format to encapsulate an open standards XML-based framework, and in so doing attempt to destroy open standards containers encapsulating the same framework. But this issue is tackled three ways:

&lt;ol&gt;

&lt;li&gt;the digital publication industry develops and promotes an open standard container format,&lt;/li&gt;

&lt;li&gt;the fact that it will be trivial for a publisher to package the same XML-based framework content into various container formats, as well as trivial for user agents to unpackage the various containers (as noted above), and&lt;/li&gt;

&lt;li&gt;the growth of open source user agents to render the XML-based framework and which can handle different container formats as already mentioned.&lt;/li&gt;

&lt;/ol&gt;

I believe these three factors will act as a sufficient check to prevent runaway &quot;proprietization via container&quot; of the open standard framework.

For (1), the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.idpf.org/idpf_groups/content.htm&quot;&gt;Container Working Group&lt;/a&gt; in IDPF is indeed working on an industry-wide open standard container which I&#039;m an invited expert (representing the OpenReader Consortium.) I urge John Mark Ockerbloom to follow that work (and do consider asking Garth Conboy, the co-chair of CWG, for permission to attend the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.idpf.org/events.htm&quot;&gt;CWG Face-To-Face meeting in NYC on Feb. 7/8&lt;/a&gt; &#8212; I&#039;ll put in a good word for you!)

Item (3) is interesting. The other day I downloaded &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fictionwise.com/fwreader.htm&quot;&gt;Fictionwise&#039;s &quot;lite&quot; desktop reader&lt;/a&gt;, which is a freebie, and noticed that it unpacks and renders non-DRM&#039;d (Sealed) Microsoft LIT files. After all, Microsoft LIT is essentially an OEBPS 1.0.1 Publication (an XML-based framework) encapsulated with a proprietary container. (Of course, Fictionwise reader&#039;s quality of rendering leaves a lot to be desired &#8212; it is not designed to be a high-quality XML-framework rendering engine. But &quot;rich&quot; XML-framework user agents will be able to do a great job in presenting existing Microsoft LIT publications, and could surpass the presentation quality and feature-set of MS Reader, if they wanted to.)

So far I&#039;ve not talked about DRM/TPM, but then this is a difficult topic (a &quot;sticky wicket&quot; as our friends across the Pond would say) no matter what types of containers and frameworks we are talking about. Encryption is pretty agnostic to what is being encrypted, and the issues of decryption (such as faced by end-users, including libraries and archives) are essentially independent of underlying framework.

Certainly, most of us would like the DRM/TPM issues to be resolved in some uniform, industry-wide, consumer-friendly fashion by the time open standard consumer-level digital publication formats are embraced and become commonplace, but I believe this requires a dialogue orthogonal to (but not wholly separate from) the issues of container and framework.

I&#039;m certainly open to further discussion on these topics, and can be persuaded to change my mind on some of my conclusions above as I read different perspectives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reference to John Mark Ockerbloom&#8217;s well-written comment, when one looks at the user agent codebase requirements to unpack an XML-based framework (such as OEBPS and the proposed OpenReader), versus the requirements to render the framework once unpacked, we find that the unpacking step borders on the trivial (e.g., unpack a zip file.) That is, <em>from an application point of view,</em> the container is pretty much a triviality.</p>
<p>For example, let&#8217;s assume we have three quite different container formats which encapsulate the same XML-based framework (e.g., one is ZIP, another is multi-part MIME, and the third is serialized XML akin to those used for the FictionBook 2 and Sony&#8217;s BBeB Xylog formats.) A user agent, originally designed to process and render the framework inside one of the container formats, will be able to readily unpack the other container formats and process the framework inside. The same cannot be said if the framework inside is fundamentally changed, such as to some oddball non-XML format. Now we are talking about <em>major</em> software changes, and likely major changes in the end-user reading experience.</p>
<p>Thus, it is what is inside the container that is the most important to get right since that is what really defines the format as the user agent renders and as end-user accesses it: features, functions, etc. I agree with Bill&#8217;s <a href="http://blogs.adobe.com/billmccoy/2006/01/sony_bbeb_and_e.html">latest blog article</a>, where he keeps the focus on the XML-based framework and is not distracted by container issues. (I believe we need to think of separating container and framework, akin to the mantra in XML of separating content and presentation.)</p>
<p>Nevertheless, it is important that the design of the container itself be well-done so it facilitates the ability of user agents and other applications to access the framework resources inside of it (both content and important metadata, particularly publication identifiers), as well as meet other miscellaneous requirements of publishers and end-users.</p>
<p>Obviously, there is the issue of someone developing a proprietary container format to encapsulate an open standards XML-based framework, and in so doing attempt to destroy open standards containers encapsulating the same framework. But this issue is tackled three ways:</p>
<ol>
<li>the digital publication industry develops and promotes an open standard container format,</li>
<li>the fact that it will be trivial for a publisher to package the same XML-based framework content into various container formats, as well as trivial for user agents to unpackage the various containers (as noted above), and</li>
<li>the growth of open source user agents to render the XML-based framework and which can handle different container formats as already mentioned.</li>
</ol>
<p>I believe these three factors will act as a sufficient check to prevent runaway &#8220;proprietization via container&#8221; of the open standard framework.</p>
<p>For (1), the <a href="http://www.idpf.org/idpf_groups/content.htm">Container Working Group</a> in IDPF is indeed working on an industry-wide open standard container which I&#8217;m an invited expert (representing the OpenReader Consortium.) I urge John Mark Ockerbloom to follow that work (and do consider asking Garth Conboy, the co-chair of CWG, for permission to attend the <a href="http://www.idpf.org/events.htm">CWG Face-To-Face meeting in NYC on Feb. 7/8</a> &mdash; I&#8217;ll put in a good word for you!)</p>
<p>Item (3) is interesting. The other day I downloaded <a href="http://www.fictionwise.com/fwreader.htm">Fictionwise&#8217;s &#8220;lite&#8221; desktop reader</a>, which is a freebie, and noticed that it unpacks and renders non-DRM&#8217;d (Sealed) Microsoft LIT files. After all, Microsoft LIT is essentially an OEBPS 1.0.1 Publication (an XML-based framework) encapsulated with a proprietary container. (Of course, Fictionwise reader&#8217;s quality of rendering leaves a lot to be desired &mdash; it is not designed to be a high-quality XML-framework rendering engine. But &#8220;rich&#8221; XML-framework user agents will be able to do a great job in presenting existing Microsoft LIT publications, and could surpass the presentation quality and feature-set of MS Reader, if they wanted to.)</p>
<p>So far I&#8217;ve not talked about DRM/TPM, but then this is a difficult topic (a &#8220;sticky wicket&#8221; as our friends across the Pond would say) no matter what types of containers and frameworks we are talking about. Encryption is pretty agnostic to what is being encrypted, and the issues of decryption (such as faced by end-users, including libraries and archives) are essentially independent of underlying framework.</p>
<p>Certainly, most of us would like the DRM/TPM issues to be resolved in some uniform, industry-wide, consumer-friendly fashion by the time open standard consumer-level digital publication formats are embraced and become commonplace, but I believe this requires a dialogue orthogonal to (but not wholly separate from) the issues of container and framework.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m certainly open to further discussion on these topics, and can be persuaded to change my mind on some of my conclusions above as I read different perspectives.</p>
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		<title>By: John Mark Ockerbloom</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/jon-noring/everyones-openreader/comment-page-1/#comment-45559</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mark Ockerbloom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/?p=4201#comment-45559</guid>
		<description>I&#039;t&#039;s nice that OpenReader group plans to release a draft spec of its &quot;framework&quot; part soon.  But it&#039;s the &quot;associated encapsulator/container&quot; part, not so much the &quot;next generation OEBPS&quot; part, that I&#039;m most concerned about with OpenReader.   Getting the spec for *that* right is going to be crucial if OpenReader is going to be able to satisfy its promises to the reader.

Consider the poll currently on the OpenReader site about negatives of proprietary formats (which are implicitly contrasted to what OpenReader will be like):

  -- Can&#039;t reliably upgrade to new PDA or other gizmo
  -- Low limits on the number of machines that can display my books
  -- I&#039;m worried the company will be bought out or go out of business
  -- The vendor might not always support the format
  -- Why should my choice of operating systems influence what books I can read?
  -- I hate the idea of one company rising to the top and bossing publishers around

All of the above are still problems with an open &quot;framework&quot; format wrapped in a proprietary &quot;encapsulator/container&quot; packaging.  Making the underlying &quot;framework&quot; more feature-ful than existing standards like OEBPS 1.2 doesn&#039;t in itself solve any of these problems.  So if OpenReader wants to change the situation, it will have to specify both framework and packaging.  (And the latter should not lag the former, lest someone run with the inner format and wave the &quot;OpenReader&quot; banner over all kinds of new encumbered customer-hostile ebooks.)  

As far as the underlying document formatting goes, a next-generation improvement on OEBPS sounds nice, but I&#039;m personally happy to just have some good-enough existing standard there for starters.  Whether that should be the current version of OEBPS, or XHTML, or ODF, or eventually some new better format that the OpenReader group comes up with, doesn&#039;t matter much to me as long as it&#039;s something that&#039;s clearly and openly specified and easy to implement.  How the user and the user&#039;s software can (or can&#039;t) get access to this open standard in actual OpenReader books they acquire is what makes the format as a whole &quot;open&quot; or not from a consumer&#039;s point of view.   

So I&#039;d suggest that OpenReader needs to concentrate its attention there, if anywhere. Even if it doesn&#039;t have a full spec right off the bat (which the &quot;we&#039;ll deal with DRM in the next release&quot; comments I&#039;ve seen hint at) it at least needs to nail down clear and firm requirements about what kind of packaging/encapsulation is acceptable and what isn&#039;t for a book that claims to be an OpenReader title. If specifying a new &quot;next generation&quot; document representation format is postponing that, I&#039;d argue that that&#039;s a distraction that could be fatal to the project&#039;s stated mission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;t's nice that OpenReader group plans to release a draft spec of its &#8220;framework&#8221; part soon.  But it&#8217;s the &#8220;associated encapsulator/container&#8221; part, not so much the &#8220;next generation OEBPS&#8221; part, that I&#8217;m most concerned about with OpenReader.   Getting the spec for *that* right is going to be crucial if OpenReader is going to be able to satisfy its promises to the reader.</p>
<p>Consider the poll currently on the OpenReader site about negatives of proprietary formats (which are implicitly contrasted to what OpenReader will be like):</p>
<p>  &#8212; Can&#8217;t reliably upgrade to new PDA or other gizmo<br />
  &#8212; Low limits on the number of machines that can display my books<br />
  &#8212; I&#8217;m worried the company will be bought out or go out of business<br />
  &#8212; The vendor might not always support the format<br />
  &#8212; Why should my choice of operating systems influence what books I can read?<br />
  &#8212; I hate the idea of one company rising to the top and bossing publishers around</p>
<p>All of the above are still problems with an open &#8220;framework&#8221; format wrapped in a proprietary &#8220;encapsulator/container&#8221; packaging.  Making the underlying &#8220;framework&#8221; more feature-ful than existing standards like OEBPS 1.2 doesn&#8217;t in itself solve any of these problems.  So if OpenReader wants to change the situation, it will have to specify both framework and packaging.  (And the latter should not lag the former, lest someone run with the inner format and wave the &#8220;OpenReader&#8221; banner over all kinds of new encumbered customer-hostile ebooks.)  </p>
<p>As far as the underlying document formatting goes, a next-generation improvement on OEBPS sounds nice, but I&#8217;m personally happy to just have some good-enough existing standard there for starters.  Whether that should be the current version of OEBPS, or XHTML, or ODF, or eventually some new better format that the OpenReader group comes up with, doesn&#8217;t matter much to me as long as it&#8217;s something that&#8217;s clearly and openly specified and easy to implement.  How the user and the user&#8217;s software can (or can&#8217;t) get access to this open standard in actual OpenReader books they acquire is what makes the format as a whole &#8220;open&#8221; or not from a consumer&#8217;s point of view.   </p>
<p>So I&#8217;d suggest that OpenReader needs to concentrate its attention there, if anywhere. Even if it doesn&#8217;t have a full spec right off the bat (which the &#8220;we&#8217;ll deal with DRM in the next release&#8221; comments I&#8217;ve seen hint at) it at least needs to nail down clear and firm requirements about what kind of packaging/encapsulation is acceptable and what isn&#8217;t for a book that claims to be an OpenReader title. If specifying a new &#8220;next generation&#8221; document representation format is postponing that, I&#8217;d argue that that&#8217;s a distraction that could be fatal to the project&#8217;s stated mission.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Noring</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/jon-noring/everyones-openreader/comment-page-1/#comment-45554</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Noring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:21:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/?p=4201#comment-45554</guid>
		<description>I thank Bill McCoy for &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.adobe.com/billmccoy/2006/01/the_forked_road.html&quot;&gt;promptly replying&lt;/a&gt; to this article in his &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.adobe.com/billmccoy/&quot;&gt;blog&lt;/a&gt;. Those interested in standards development strategies are encouraged to read his blog article.

So, what do you think? Does Bill have a point, or is OpenReader&#039;s current standards-development strategy (outlined in the above TeleRead article) also viable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thank Bill McCoy for <a href="http://blogs.adobe.com/billmccoy/2006/01/the_forked_road.html">promptly replying</a> to this article in his <a href="http://blogs.adobe.com/billmccoy/">blog</a>. Those interested in standards development strategies are encouraged to read his blog article.</p>
<p>So, what do you think? Does Bill have a point, or is OpenReader&#8217;s current standards-development strategy (outlined in the above TeleRead article) also viable?</p>
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		<title>By: Manuel</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/jon-noring/everyones-openreader/comment-page-1/#comment-45540</link>
		<dc:creator>Manuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 02:22:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/?p=4201#comment-45540</guid>
		<description>Hello, I uses Adobe reader already some years for me gives not better, at present the version 7,0 and the Adobe Photoshop the 3.0 version.  I use both programs for the Shop treatment, could to me without the two programs this with difficulty present.  Before 8 years in the catalog age used I Pagemaker with the version 4,0 has I begun now possesses I the version 7,0, but the program is so extensively if man 50-60 % is beherscht one professional.  wish still kind regards from Austria, and sorry for my bad English</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello, I uses Adobe reader already some years for me gives not better, at present the version 7,0 and the Adobe Photoshop the 3.0 version.  I use both programs for the Shop treatment, could to me without the two programs this with difficulty present.  Before 8 years in the catalog age used I Pagemaker with the version 4,0 has I begun now possesses I the version 7,0, but the program is so extensively if man 50-60 % is beherscht one professional.  wish still kind regards from Austria, and sorry for my bad English</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Carey</title>
		<link>http://www.teleread.com/jon-noring/everyones-openreader/comment-page-1/#comment-45538</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Carey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:42:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.teleread.org/blog/?p=4201#comment-45538</guid>
		<description>Jon,

I don&#039;t know how much more &quot;open&quot; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.osoft.com/&quot;&gt;OSoft&lt;/a&gt; can be. Just two weeks ago I sent out an invitation to the entire 3,000+ member Yahoo &lt;a href=&quot;http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ebook-community/&quot;&gt;eBook Community&lt;/a&gt; to participate in live demos of the ThoutReader. We were interested in both publisher and end user feedback on features, user interface, desired DRM requirements, and other functionalities.  We have not been disappointed with the comments.

Keep up the good work.

Mark Carey
President
OSoft.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how much more &#8220;open&#8221; <a href="http://www.osoft.com/">OSoft</a> can be. Just two weeks ago I sent out an invitation to the entire 3,000+ member Yahoo <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ebook-community/">eBook Community</a> to participate in live demos of the ThoutReader. We were interested in both publisher and end user feedback on features, user interface, desired DRM requirements, and other functionalities.  We have not been disappointed with the comments.</p>
<p>Keep up the good work.</p>
<p>Mark Carey<br />
President<br />
OSoft.com</p>
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